1300 307 445
TRANSCRIPT
Unknown Speaker
This is an ihs.com.au production
Brendan Torazzi
Welcome to Episode 45 of the Australian Health and Safety Business Podcast. I'm Brendan Torazzi, the host of the show. And to to this morning, I should say I'm joined with rusty Moran from Gerringong surf school and the veteran surf project. Good morning, Rusty. How are you?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, Brendan. I'm awesome. How are you, mate?
Brendan Torazzi
Great. Great. Now what you took me out for a bit of a surf coaching session the other day, and I learned something very interesting from you. Yeah. Tell us about the wonderful project that you're doing with the veteran cert project.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, so Well, I run a surf school down here in Gerringong, at Seven Mile Beach, and we've got a government grant to teach veterans to learn to surf over a 10 week surfing program. And I'm doing a master's degree studying the beneficial effects of an intervention of surfing for veterans suffering, PTSD and depression.
Brendan Torazzi
Wow. So how did you how did you sort of make that link between surfing and lifting the mood levels was just an intuitive thing.
Unknown Speaker
For surfers, we all know how it feels when you when you you're feeling flat, but you need to go into the ocean. And then afterwards, you always feel amazing coming out of the surf. And then with my surf school, I saw, you know, heaps of people that with PTSD or depression come out of their gray area, and come back to life after you know, several weeks of lessons. And that's when I had the idea that this could really help the veteran community. My father was a veteran. He's just recently passed away. And he suffered PTSD. And I was actually diagnosed with PTSD and depression myself. So I've been through it. And I've used the surf to heal myself. And now I use it to help help other people suffering.
Brendan Torazzi
That's amazing, Rusty. So those first, I guess, veterans that came along to your school was that just by just happened by chance?
Unknown Speaker
Well, where we are, we're pretty close to big gun Navy base down here. HMS albatross at Nowra. So we were getting veterans who are just turning up for lessons. And then as I was getting to know them and sharing a bit of my story, they would open up and tell me you know, some of their experiences and how good surfing makes them feel. And it's that they were they were actually referring to their Saturday morning lesson as their week weekly psych session. And, yeah, and, and, and then we started just getting some ideas and then some, some GPS actually started referring veterans. To me, you know, these guys need some surfing lessons. And it's just started snowballing from there and then I bumped into some some guys down here that run a charity. Keith Payne Victoria Cross holder, he's the he was the he had the had the idea of putting some charities together down here. And and we got together and, and said, How about surfing? I thought that's a bit of a wacky idea. And I said, but it works, mate. So then we tried, we tried it out. And we actually got Keith pain down here too. To meet the the surfers on their first on their first session earlier this year, so that was beautiful.
Brendan Torazzi
Oh, wow. So how long is the how long? Have you been unofficially running the sessions with veterans?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, sure. So over the last few years, we've been tossing it around and and just trying to work out what formula works best. And and then this year has been we've been we've been undertaking the formal study for Western Sydney University where I'm doing my master's degree. So we're actually we're actually recording the the baseline
Brendan Torazzi
surveys. Is that like to do with depression or like, Yeah, sure. So we're, yep.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, we're recording a few things. So depression, PTSD, social connectedness, and also a term that's used in therapeutic recreation called self efficacy, which is the belief in oneself that one circumstances can change. So when someone's suffering from depression, they can't actually see any light at the end of the tunnel. They think they're gonna be stuck there forever. Right, but when, but when they come surfing, or they do an activity, they go, Oh my gosh, I feel so good. And and I couldn't believe I can't believe I could have achieved that. I wonder what else I can achieve? And then they say, Yeah,
Brendan Torazzi
it sounds like surfing is helping them be in the moment for a while?
Unknown Speaker
Well, yeah, it's a number of factors. So it's been in the moment. So it's forced meditation. But it's also this adrenaline rush. And a big flood of endorphins that you get from riding a wave and military personnel are craving that that's possibly why they signed up for the military in the first place is because they needed this adrenaline rush and, and need to go into, you know, like a high temporary cortisol state where all the veins are running with adrenaline. So we're replicating that feeling that they get from military service. And also, then afterwards, as they they're also good at following a step by step learning procedure,
Brendan Torazzi
I can imagine so they make very good students,
Unknown Speaker
they get their dream students. They follow this, I give them a little safety protocol, and they follow it to a tee. It's perfect. Yeah. And then, but then I say, right, here's a 10 week program, we're gonna learn, you know, two or three things each week, and, and, you know, 20 or 30, over 10 weeks, and they, they can see that investing the time in, in the repetition of a perfect technique. Early on, pays dividends later on. So they, they understand the learning process, which is great. So then it then sort of halfway through or after a few lessons, they start feeling, you know, I'm hooked on surfing, and I've got to get my own board. What sort of surfboard should I go and buy and we actually give away the ones who get close to there. The eighth or ninth or 10th week we give them a surfboard. So we wanted to continue surfing. So yeah, surfing is really addictive, because you're getting this all these feel good hormones running through your body. And so our results are going to be really interesting. Like I'm seeing it in the eyes of the participants out there. They're coming back to life already. It's beautiful. So now somehow we've got to record that and then publish, publish our results in a scientific journal, and then take it back to the Department of Veterans Affairs and say, Look, this is working. This, you should roll this this type of activity out all over Australia for veterans. Yeah,
Brendan Torazzi
how good would that be? If you, you know, started with this idea, and then it's blossomed into this small program. And then from there makes, you know, benefits people all around the country. Amazing.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, well, we've got that in mind. Right. From the outset, we said, we want to change government policy. So that's why we have to do it, we have to do it exactly as per the university process. And so my, my professors at the university are saying, Alright, sometimes you got to take your surf coach hat off and put your researcher hat on. Yeah, so I've got to step aside and just observe and take notes and, and record what I'm seeing and just leave the instruction up to my surf coaches. And, but I can't help myself is so beautiful. Summer, one of the boys catches a good wave. We're all screaming, you know, whoo, you know, and, and everyone's clapping and cheering, and the the positive vibes, infectious. It's beautiful.
Brendan Torazzi
And how hard was it to get that grant? Like that sat? You know, because as you said, it was a it's a, I don't think it's a wacky idea. But I guess if you're, I don't know, a bureaucrat sitting in Canberra, or Victoria and Canberra, in a government office going surfing, like, how did you? How did you convince them that this was a good idea?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, really good question. And it's not working for me either, because I'd seen it and I know how everyone who serves knows how beneficial being in salt water is and being and, you know, writing ways no matter what sort of craft so I actually started just before he then had the idea for that, for applying for the grant I actually had. I'm an engineer, civil engineers, and I've done a bit of property development. So I've always loved digging into the research myself. So I was looking up all the scientific literature on surfing, surfing therapy, programs, and particularly those for veterans and I thought there'd be quite a bit of science on it, but there wasn't there's there's only it's only a very new field. So the very first serve therapy study was done in 2011. And it was a, it was a one person cohort. And then after that there was another another group of like 26. And then another one a 50. And a recent one of 92. Okay, so, so there's only a few. Yeah, there's like only a few studies that have been done with with military personnel suffering PTSD, and, and measuring the PTSD and depression before and after. So it was, I had to, I had to piece together the tiny little bit of research that was done and, and then extrapolate that and say, look, it hasn't been done in Australia, it's only done in the UK in the US, we need it done within an Australian setting with Australian veterans. So that was, the first thing is, is that this is new research. So I had to convince the Department of Veterans Affairs that this was there was runs on the board already and, and there was a need, because it hadn't been done in Australia. So then, and then I said, on top of that, what we're going to do is we're going to do extend the, the time period for the the measurements, so we're gonna go not just before and after the surf the 10 week SURF program, but then we're going to follow up the participants for for between six and 12 months. So no one else has done that in the world, too. So we're going to add to the global body of evidence. Yep. Yeah. And, and then we had to, yeah, we also then had to put our case forward as to corporate governance as to, you know, if we get this grant, we're not just going to blow it, you know, taken, taken people surfing, but we're going to be we're gonna stick to a university research protocol. And we've got a corporate governance team with the Keith pain, charity. And yeah, it's not, you know, so.
Brendan Torazzi
And is that how you got you got accepted into the master's program via this program? Like, yeah,
Unknown Speaker
so Well, we got the grant. First, we got the grant. And, like, we were, we were hopeful, but when we, when it landed, and we got the letter, we were, you know, blown away. Yeah. And then I, then the first step was, okay, I had to then sign up a university. So I met with a couple of universities and Western Sydney University said, they could not believe that I got a grant on my first writing application. And they said, okay, so that tells us that you've got not only a passion for, for this, but you've got the aptitude to, to dig into the scientific literature. So they gave me the shortcut into applying for the, the masters. So it's a it's a master of philosophy with this research as my dissertation for the next two years. So you know, what, it's a it's a dream for me, because I'd be doing this for free anyway. Like, I just love geeking out on the research, I love it. Like when I see people change, I want to know why. Why what's changing? What is it in salt water? What is it about the, the, you know, the the meditative aspect of standing on a surfboard and riding a wave? How can that put you into a meditation state? What's going on. So for my doctorate, I'm going to have got plans at the stage to get a swimming cap, like a waterproof swimming cap with an EEG monitor built in, and some sort of Bluetooth connection where I can actually see the brainwave activity while someone's on a wave. And it would be fantastic to take this into the veteran community and have someone who's suffering with PTSD and depression and put them on a surfboard and ride their first wave and, and have a look on the screen and see what parts of the brain are lighting up. You know, for the first time, possibly, you know, in years, and then, and then if we keep surfing, then we're starting to build up those neuronal connections. And the brain is getting used to this new activity.
Brendan Torazzi
Yep. Now, the thing I love about this project is you're, you're benefiting all these veterans, you're learning, you're learning a huge amount yourself, like going back to uni and getting a master's and all of that. And then yeah, and then assuming that this is going to be successful, it's going to have this multiplier effect where potentially this program could be rolled out all around the country, and possibly in other countries as well, I guess.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So there's, yeah, that's, you know, it's it's it's easy work for me. It doesn't even feel like work. It's just play. It's just play and stuff that I just I'm doing anyway. Yeah. So, for me, it's a joy. And the research is also a joy. And, you know, the hard work is sometimes some of the admin stuff where I've got to do and being around being around veterans and especially in the mental health space. That's an area that I'm passionate about. So even that doesn't feel like hard work. Sometimes trying to get some of the members off the lounge and actually to their first lesson is hard work. Yeah. So we have to, we have to arrange a few sort of ploy tactics, one of the one of the inmates has to literally go around to their house and pick them up and put them in the car. And yeah, you know,
Brendan Torazzi
I would imagine if you're in that state, it could be hard to get started, you know, to get that motivation. It
Unknown Speaker
is yeah. And I've been there. And so I completely get it. Yeah. So there's no, you know, and that's, that's, that's also I think, key a key ingredient in replicating this is to have is to have a will have a practitioner, who understands
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah. 100%. So you've actually been in that situation. So you can be you have empathy towards, you know, how they're feeling. And yeah, yeah. What's going on? Yeah, I was interested, Rusty to hear like, all this work is absolutely amazing. But I was interested to hear how you, yourself got into surfing because you've had quite a colorful, surfing history, as I understand. Yeah. When did you spell surfing?
Unknown Speaker
Yep. So when I was 10, immediately hooked, right? Immediately, I knew that this was the place for me. I just loved it. So I was always a bit OCD grown up. So once I set my mind to something that was all I could focus on. And so I got pretty good at surfing at a young age, because I was just super tunnel vision focused on improving my own skills. It wasn't just some fun it had that gave me more life purpose, even as a teenager. Yeah. So I wanted to be really good at it. And so that led me to surfing professionally big waves and getting photos in magazines. And that was my job for a few years. And that was a dream.
Brendan Torazzi
What was the biggest way if you ever surfed?
Unknown Speaker
Pretty big man. This is in the 90s. And so it'd be what we you know, the best way to describe this a five stories. So if you're on the fifth story of a of an apartment building, looking down that would imagine sort of taking off on that. And if you fall off, he's got a bit of water coming to land on you.
Brendan Torazzi
Do you? Do you wear a safety vest? When you big wave surfing?
Unknown Speaker
Well, we do now. But But back in the 90s? It wasn't. It wasn't considered mandatory? Yeah, well, it was it was even a bit soft. If you if you got it had jet skis or you know, offering assistance. You had to do it by your own physical power. Oh, wow. Yeah. So we had big surfboards, and, and we had to be able to swim really well.
Brendan Torazzi
So that five story wave we're about to present
Unknown Speaker
in Hawaiian or North Shore. I used to spend a few months a year every year while I was at uni, and then into my early 20s Until a few of my friends drowned. So had four of my mates drown in one season. And that sort of made me pull back a bit. Yeah.
Brendan Torazzi
So like, while you were there, or
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, one guy drowned right beside me. so odd. Yeah. Yeah. Now, what's really interesting is that, when that happens, I didn't have really an emotional response to that. It was it was get out of the situation. And then and then back onto the beach. And then an hour later, I had to think about are so okay. Yeah, my mate might have drowned here. Where is he? But start looking for him, you know? And then um, I was doing a lesson this week with a with a young lady who's a Navy veteran. She got her first first wave last Saturday, and she had an amazing experience. Yeah, her eyes were lighting up. Like she was like, just in a really happy place riding these waves. And then back on the beach while we're having lunch. I asked her. Can you describe what that felt like? She's She looked at me and said, No, I can't right now. I'll just keep it to myself. And I thought okay, no worries. She might just be having a down day. That's alright. Then the next week she came running up to me saying, I figured out what work couldn't talk the other days because when we're in a real critical moment in the Navy has trained us to disassociate our emotions from the task at hand. Right? I've gone Ah, yeah, I understand that. I've been through that myself, you know, when you're in when you're in like a life threatening
Brendan Torazzi
situation. Yeah, where we're,
Unknown Speaker
we're, everything's all these emotions are potentially running, but you have to flatten them to, to concentrate on task at hand. Yeah, so really, really interesting. Now surfing is the opposite of that. Surfing is all about tapping into your emotions and feeling things for the first time. And so it's very interesting that I have experienced some of those some of those symptoms of of like, yeah, I call it been, like, you know, OCD loops or, or, um, so this is from my childhood from traumas in my childhood been raised in a, in a household with an alcoholic father. So I've got an understanding from what I've lived through, even though I haven't done military service that I can connect with these guys and understand what what they're going through. So really interesting, just in the last sort of year, probably Matt seven or eight years where I've actually joined the dots in my life and don't write that the reason why I think like this is because of what happened when I was a teenager or what happened when I was five years old. And doing the self development work to go back and dealing with traumas in my childhood.
Brendan Torazzi
Do you still? Do you still like chasing big waves?
Unknown Speaker
Love it. Can't Get Enough. I really can't get enough, mate. I can't get out of Australia at the moment. So yeah, I've had to sort of, I've been learning to surf the other way. So I'm surfing with my right foot forward after 40 years of surfing left foot forward. Yeah. Because I've had to, I've had to give myself a new challenge. Because the ways I want to go and surf in Indonesia and Hawaii, I can't get to at the moment. So instead of you know, complaining about it, I've given myself a new challenge. It's been like learning to play guitar left handed for the first time in your life, and so completely round the other way. around the other way. It's real brain Bender, and it's humiliating. And it makes me it makes me understand what people are feeling. You know, because after 40 years of surfing you, you tend to, you know, take them for granted.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah, I know how to do it. Everyone should know how to do it.
Unknown Speaker
So big ways for me right now is you know what? It was like, I've been surfing, you know, chest high, and then head high, and then a little bit bigger than head high. And I'm getting a massive adrenaline rush out of that. Any other way
Brendan Torazzi
Goofy?
Unknown Speaker
Goofy? Yeah, like your ways we rode the other day? I was writing all those goofy. Yeah, but made I can't wait to get back to Hawaii and Indonesia when when I can. But
Brendan Torazzi
that's brilliant. Well, thank you so much for opening up and telling us about your life story and the amazing work that you're doing with this project. If people want to connect in with you and see a little bit more what you're doing. What's your website?
Unknown Speaker
Unreal. So veteran, serve project.org. Yep. Is website on Facebook and Instagram veteran surf project.
Brendan Torazzi
Okay. That's fantastic. And then if if people want to look your if they're down on the south coast, and they want to look you up for Oh, yes. So I can I can. I've only been surfing for probably six or seven years, but I definitely learned some new tricks with you the other day. So thank you so much. So yeah, possibly recommend rusty for a if you're, you know, an intermediate surfer or even if you've been for a long time, go go and get some coaching and and a Gerringong. Surf School?
Unknown Speaker
Yep. Yep. So the website there is Gerringong surf school.com.au and Facebook and Instagram during Gong school. Frisco. And if anyone knows any military personnel or any veterans, send them my way. So absolutely. We were looking for new people to share the love of the ocean with.
Brendan Torazzi
Excellent. All right, Rusty. Thanks so much.
Unknown Speaker
Brennan. Thank you, mate. And I'm glad to hear that your the tidbits that I gave you during our coaching session. Yeah, that they were paying off the next day was absolutely right. I love your work. She's my
Unknown Speaker
you've been listening to an ohs.com.au production.
Brendan Torazzi
I hope you've been enjoying listening to the podcast if you are. It'd be great if you could help us out by leaving us a review and sharing this with friends and colleagues.