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Unknown Speaker
This is an ohs.com.au production
Brendan Torazzi
Welcome to Episode 38 of the Australian Health and Safety Business Podcast. I'm Brendan Torazzi, the host of a show and today I'm joined with Gareth Davies from safer shore. Good morning, Gareth.
Unknown Speaker
Brennan. Hey, going on. Well,
Brendan Torazzi
thanks. It's, it's great to have you on the on the show. So you piqued my interest. The other day, I got an email and there's been the first prosecution in Queensland under was at the industrial manslaughter charge. Yeah, that's right. Tell us about what's happened.
Unknown Speaker
So there was a charge laid against a couple of officers under the act. And that finally eventuated in being a becoming a going to trial and a prosecution being ran up here. It was run by a legal firm that we work with. Partner how downs ran for the defendants, who, and in the end, they've ended up having the prosecution. We've had the laws up here in Queensland for since October 2017. So it's been a little while coming, it was always gonna be interesting how, I guess that played out. And what happened? In the end, the two defendants they were company was Brisbane auto recycling. And, yeah, they're both found to be guilty. I'm just trying to find the actual specifics.
Brendan Torazzi
From what I read, it was something to do with one of the one of the employees driving a forklift. Unlicensed, and it unfortunately killed another worker is that
Unknown Speaker
yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's the specifics of the actual incident. They they entered guilty pleas for the two directors, and they had a category on charges of reckless conduct against them. Yeah, it was obviously determined that they failed to exercise, due diligence and would charge and fined or convicted and fined $3 million. And cents is 10 months imprisonment. But interestingly enough, it was wholly suspended for 20 months. So they won't serve any jail time as a result of that. But it's a little bit complex and probably better minds and make and give you all the details about it. I'll put a link Yeah.
Brendan Torazzi
What about the fine? What does that How did they come up with the with a fine, basically shuts down your business, doesn't it? If you're a company,
Unknown Speaker
it's just any business? In reality, they won't be paying any of that fine, is my understanding. So yeah, look, I think, in effect, they'll they won't don't have a business. There was some complications around you know, that they were refugees and visas and all that kind of stuff. So there's definitely some complexities there. As I say they I know Howard and his team worked very closely with some called the, the visa, or the immigration, immigration agents think and so I had a couple of those guys working on the case full time as well. So it's very complex, and probably, as we say, not not necessarily the easiest first test of these laws to go through court, you know, quite complex, definitely. But I guess
Brendan Torazzi
what it does do is highlight the fact to other businesses that this stuff is real, and it can happen.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, definitely, particularly with with as we talked about, and in that article we sent out around the progressive you know, endorsement of these types of legislation across the country. That you know, you need to be ready need to be on the front foot. And definitely directors officers under the axe need to be prepared and make sure they're following and implementing their due diligence.
Brendan Torazzi
So what a new client comes to you, Gareth. I guess let's take it back step and just tell us what say for sure actually does.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, so so for sure is safety quality environmental consulting. Company, we started the business in 2014. And just saw an opportunity to be able to support and help a wide range of businesses I guess. We fall in that space of being compliance driven, which is can sometimes be a negative term in our our industry, but basically, we help businesses find solutions and Help them to ensure that they're legally compliant. We do a range of other activities as well. And a lot of our businesses chapter and incident investigation, having investigated fatalities, all the way down to work cover, and insurance investigations for for incidents and common law claims and all that kind of stuff. So we have a wide spread there. And as he and I briefly chatting about off here was that we partner with a range of organizations. So we try and offer a holistic service to our clients across HR training, occupational medicine, Occupational Hygiene. What else do we do, we've got drug and alcohol professionals that work really closely with a say, a broad cross section of people that can help support clients that all closely interconnected with health and safety under that broad banner, you know, mental health professionals, employee assistance programs, legal firms. So again, we might get clients come to us and say, Oh, we've had this incident. So we'll go and respond, but we talk them through the process of engaging lawyers and, and how to work under legal privilege, and then get the lawyers to do that. But first, before we get too heavily involved, so we have a good network of people that we partner up with.
Brendan Torazzi
And so I do find that most companies have something in place, or does it just depend on the industry?
Unknown Speaker
Probably a little bit the industry a little bit of size of the company, for probably as many calls as we get for, you know, Can you review our system, we probably get a call saying can you write us a system because we've had nothing and we've been in operation for X number of years. So and look, I don't think that's that's not a you know, a naive take in a lot of ways. I mean, directors unfortunately, gravitate to what they're good at. You know, as funnily enough, listening to your last podcast was Scott Coleman, who we've spoken to about trying to utilize some of his technology with our, our clients, but the listen to him talk about saying, Oh, the business side isn't my thing. And it's not mine, either. Typically, you know, I've had to learn over the last six years, that side of it. So you know, someone running a business is technically good at Waste Management or technically good at automotive or construction, or whatever it might be, that's where their head is, they want to put out the best product they possibly can. And, yes, sometimes sometimes they turn a blind eye into it, sometimes they just, they, they don't know what they don't know. So that's when they get a phone call, either through our network or our referral partners who put them in our way. And we help them in the most pragmatic and simple way to meet their obligations under the Act and provide a safe work environment for their workers, but also protect them from things like industrial manslaughter and other potential prosecution.
Brendan Torazzi
So what do you think is better? Is it better for a company to have nothing in place? Or like, say, a new customer like so I guess nothing in a place, you've got a complete blank canvas where you can put the right systems in straightaway versus something in place, which might require a whole change management process as well.
Unknown Speaker
Yes, there's probably two paths. That one I remember a lawyer always saying to me, early on, he'd rather go to court and whether this is still rings true or not, but rather go to court and defend you for doing the right thing and having those systems as opposed to having all the systems and doing and not following them. But I guess on the other side of it for us as consultants, now, when we get wrong and brought in sometimes again, it's if it's a very complicated and disjointed system, we can spend more time reviewing it and trying to adjust it to suit as opposed to writing something that that fits that company and is specific to how they operate. I think one of the things that that our industry falls down in our industry falls down in is the fact that we have a lot of people that that churn out kind of cookie cutter systems. And that's not the way it's meant to work. It's not you know, we people sell things that just don't suit that particular business. So we do our best to like everyone, we've all got our templates and our things to try and reduce the time. But we we really work with our clients to understand their business and integrate that into the way the systems operate.
Brendan Torazzi
Because I'd imagine that's the challenging part is like, making sure that these companies don't just have another policy or procedure sitting on the shelf. Then it's actually walking the walking the talk, so to speak.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that's right. And it's also really difficult as well, for certain industries where their clients, particularly if you're a services based business, or I guess the mining issues, a good example, constructions are same, where you develop something to meet legal obligations, but then you're contracting to a tier one or a large mine site or multinational mining organization. But all of those companies have different takes on how they want the information presented, or what their minimum requirements are. So it can kind of put us in a bit of a rock and a hard place when we're asked to write something to meet legal obligations. But then there's all these other stakeholders that are impacting what the systems need to do. And that's how people systems get out of control, where they're just adding a bit here and a bit there and a bit there. And all of a sudden, they've got all these expectations that yeah, and never getting met.
Brendan Torazzi
So does that mean you write to the highest level of compliance? Is that how it works? Or?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, we try to, if it's like a company, so we've had one recently whose acquiring company, so operates under the Queensland quarry, mining Safety and Health Act, and then operates a civil construction business. So where we've had to write specific to that piece of legislation, we've done that, but where the company is trying to set a standard in the business then typically written to the highest piece of legislation.
Unknown Speaker
So what were you doing before? So say for sure.
Unknown Speaker
So said prior to this role, I was a National Health Safety, Environment quality and rehab manager at Hutchinson builders. Oh, yeah. So hatchies, when I left there was about a $1.5 billion a year construction, National Construction Company, and they've grown exponentially, and we still do work for them and support them. But the you know, they're now near on or close enough to $3 billion view. So
Brendan Torazzi
yeah, they've got a great reputation, actually does that though?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, they do. Yeah, they do. They have had a great reputation for a number of years. Definitely.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah, that would have been the systems that you put in go.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. Well, I guess I can't take all the credit for all the blame one way or the other. We yet again, a very unique business that operates with team leaders who are effectively their own construction company. You don't have to have their own resourcing to deliver their works other than kind of accounts it they have done their own health and safety people within that team. And finance and payroll are the only things that kind of fall outside. But yeah, they operate across all industry sectors. You know, we're doing my one of my first major roles with them was setting up all the safety systems for the mining sector in Queensland. And that was on online site as well as offline site building camps and stuff. So it was a pretty unique role and in a unique business, to be frank.
Brendan Torazzi
So do you think that was sort of a I guess, a great training ground for you to start your own health and safety consultancy? By saying different industries and
Unknown Speaker
definitely look, I have seen I've been lucky enough to see different industries. I first when I left uni, and I studied a Bachelor of Health Science majoring health, safety and environment. I worked at a steel mill creating round hollow section and all that kind of stuff. Then I got asked to go to New Caledonia with Komatsu. And then after his contract there came back into the branch in southeast Queensland. So I got to see again, and support the business in building really large machinery on site as well as running the workshop down in, in Rockley in Brisbane, then went to civil construction and then went to hutches after that. So I've been across a lot of industries, and worked in a lot, both as a safety person and not just as the laborer or machine operator, all that kind of stuff while I was studying. And I guess I grew up with my father as a civil engineer who, who worked at a very high level within John Holland's and golden contractors and companies like that. So yeah, I've been lucky enough to see a lot of industries anyway. So it's been pretty good. Now having the business that we've got experienced when we've gone to these different industries, and particularly when doing investigations that we have a knowledge base around that industry, even if it is only limited lace, you can kind of start talking that the lingo was with that, that industry specific knowledge,
Brendan Torazzi
and do you use a certain type of investigation method or is it a proprietary
Unknown Speaker
method? No. So I guess, myself personally, I kind of use a blend of all of them. Probably were asked to use the eye cam methodology. But that being said, I did taproot at university you have used like him a lot. And then just general techniques that you've picked up along the way, I think probably in our time in the business we've would have done as a company, we definitely would have done in excess of 400, probably investigations, and which probably equates to well over 1000 statements that we've taken. So I think one of the things we push around in the investigation model is witness statement taking, and making sure that you're actually getting the information you need. At that point, a lot of people get someone to write something down a bit of paper and means nothing. Yeah, when a professional comes in, and also means nothing, really in 234 years time, if you do end up in court, so yeah, that that Nique is quite important to your investigation.
Brendan Torazzi
So it's like future proofing, all your investigations to make sure that all the work you're doing now actually can mean something if it needs to be in the future.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that's right. And we used to do when I first started, we did a lot of work cover common law claims up here in Queensland. So you're coming in three, four years down the track and trying to buy or lease so probably at least 18 months, if not up to three, four years time trying to dig up information trying to track down people and, you know, what seemed trivial back then is now potentially going to cost your company or cost your insurance claim upwards of a million dollars. So it's important to get that stuff right up front.
Brendan Torazzi
So with the new laws that have come in where you can't, you know, companies and directors of companies can't insure against the WHS you know, fines at it? How do you think that's going to change the landscape? Or do you think that companies will continue just to be reactive?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think I don't know if that alone will make changes. I don't think a lot of directors were overly savvy to insuring against fines. I mean, a lot of people have the insurance that covers costs for legal and so on. But I don't think many people that we'd worked with in the past actually, will that. Yeah, as I say that, that forward thinking to have the insurance for any potential fines. And if they were, if they'd had that conversation with their insurer, they probably didn't think that happened to them anyway. So they didn't have it.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah, that's right. If you're that organized, you'd have you'd have good systems in place in the first place. So
Unknown Speaker
yeah, probably, yeah, that's right. Or maybe they didn't feel they're in a high risk, or yeah, all their sites just weren't going to be exposed to that. So I think what, what will change what we've seen anyway, as I say, Queensland had this legislation since October 2017. And I think the, the thing that we've seen is either directors officers, who have not pursued or actively promoted a health and safety system, and the health and safety culture, are now starting to think, Ah, okay, hang on this, this can directly impact me now. So I mean, you know, the prosecution's won't won't matter if you're your wife, your wife owns all your property, you'll still be the one that's in jail kind of thing. So I think that's starting to resonate with them and pushing forward. And we've had a couple of clients where, say, the company secretary or the safety manager have tried really hard with the directors. And then they've used this as leverage, even if putting the literature in front of them, they've used as leverage to actually get some some endorsement or approval to pursue and push ahead with safety systems and audits and all that kind of stuff.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah. Yeah. No, it is. I mean, it is. It's hard to change the way companies act, I guess.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think as well, like, if you've been around, I don't know, 20 years or 30 years, or however long you've been in industry and you haven't, you know, you haven't had to ride in an ambulance with someone or go and visit a family member of an injured worker or actually have those conversations. Like I say, it doesn't, doesn't resonate with you, you know, you've you've whether through good management or good luck, you've you've managed to make it through your career without having to do that so and we sit on the other end like I've given evidence in court and a fatality I've gone and sat with was seriously injured with brain injuries or multiple fractures, all that kind of stuff, a amputations all that and sit with family members and sit with the injured worker. And so I think that's where, for us, obviously, it's important and why we do what we do, because we don't want people to end up that way. But for directors and owners who haven't ever seen that, yes, it's just not it's it's That's true, actually. Yeah, yeah, they want to push ahead and not not wrongly, but they want to push it and yeah, and make money and look after their family and look after their workers and all that from that side of things and make sure people are kept employed. And particularly in current times, you know, there's been signs, both sides of the scale where people have made sure that staff stayed employed and kept painting. And there's others where people use it to a degree as an excuse to put people aside and get rid of Deadwood. And so I think directors do what they do to keep their business going. And sometimes safety isn't necessarily at the forefront of their mind.
Brendan Torazzi
So what's the what's your plans with safety? Sure. Where are you taking business from here? Going for six years? So that's seems like that's pretty well established now.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I like to think so. I mean, I guess, for every milestone you reach and having just ticked over financial year, we achieved some milestones this year, which was great, especially given the COVID situation. But we Yeah, I think our goals are to continue our upward trajectory. I mean, well, as I said, we're we're pricing tendering against some of our longer established, let's say, and national consultancies, and getting on panels and winning tenders in all sorts of different areas, which is, which is really nice to see for us and supports the model that we have, where we try and make sure we put the most experienced in that particular industry or discipline, can put the most experienced consultant forward and try and put a really unique tender together where we add the most amount of value to the client. So I think there hasn't been a client that's come to us with a problem that through our network, we haven't been able to solve, whether that's under our banner, or just directly referring them to the right person. So yeah, we just want to keep growing and continue with our sustainable growth across the country, which we've had we service all states, probably with the minimal amount in WA, but we can service all states, we're in South Australia, at least every every quarter. Done a lot of stuff in Tasmania in the past. So just continuing upward trajectory running. Now. That's
Brendan Torazzi
brilliant. Brilliant. Okay. Well, I've got just five short questions to wrap up, Gareth. First, how old are you?
Unknown Speaker
What am I now 38?
Brendan Torazzi
And how many hours sleep you're getting each night?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that's a topic of conversation at the moment. So six, normally six or seven? Probably? Yeah, not enough.
Brendan Torazzi
And what do you like to do to keep fit?
Unknown Speaker
So I've got four young kids, so try and get out and do stuff with them. Again, another topic of conversation with a doctor, I haven't done a lot lately, which COVID didn't help, but I try. And Rod a bit, but I've cut that back. I had a hip replacement 12 months ago at 36. So yeah, so had that done. And then yeah, just trying swimming in the pool. I think at the moment is the best thing for me. Yeah.
Brendan Torazzi
And do you have any personal goals you're looking to achieve over the next 12 months?
Unknown Speaker
Look, we're actually it's been a five year goal. But we're actually about three months from finishing our new house. So that's been a big personal and family driven goal. So I think, from here on for the next few years will be to settle down into that. And like everyone pay down your mortgage and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, look, my personal goals all revolve around the family. So making sure that the families are healthy and progressing through the different levels of schooling and sport and all that kind of stuff that they've got going on. They're the main things.
Brendan Torazzi
That's excellent. And then finally, if you could be remembered for one thing in business, or health and safety, what would that be?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think the for business look on by far all my colleagues will confess that I'm by far from from an academic, I want to be someone that that helps businesses, you know, solve their problems. So we we support them through a whole range of different areas, and ultimately, making safer sites is one of them. Yes, I think, as a businessman, someone that's available and ready to help and as much as anything, given all the mental health things that go on. Yeah, being available to support as and we're required. I think,
Brendan Torazzi
if our listeners want to connect with you, Gareth. What's your website?
Unknown Speaker
Our website is safe for sure. SLFP asura.com that are you?
Brendan Torazzi
Oh, that's fantastic. Okay, All right, Garrett. Thanks very much.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, no worries. It's been excellent. Thanks Brendon.
Unknown Speaker
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Brendan Torazzi
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